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New flightpath overhead Dennistoun/ Haghill

Fiona posted on the 17/01/2018 6:14:51 PM

Hi all,

I just wanted to raise awareness if you didn't already know, that Glasgow Airport is planning a new flightpath FLEMN that will head directly over Haghill and Dennistoun, greatly increasing noise pollution in this area. Please make your voices heard if you object to this, as if you don't it will be a foregone conclusion that it will get passed. Edinburgh residents managed to stop a similar proposal of flight path changes when 4000 of them made their views known, otherwise the Civil Aviation Authority will take a lack of objection as tacit consent.

You can make your views known during the public consultation period which will end in April I think. Go to their website to fill in forms and please encourage your neighbours to do the same! You will also see their maps here -
which are deliberately opaque so people can not see clearly how the flight path relates to their homes -
but spend a bit of time comparing it to googlemaps version of Dennistoun & Haghill and you will see it travels directly over Alexandra Park in a southerly direction. www.glasgowairport.com/airspace

If you read their consultation paper you will see at the moment there is a lot of variation in flightpaths, but the new proposals intend the new routes to be very rigid, so whereas before communities would less frequently hear flight noise if this goes ahead it will be a very regular occurrence of residents in this area as they fly direct overhead, one after the other.

This is what I have written to them:

Quick question for the Glasgow Airport managers: Can I ask you to plot your new FLEMN flightpath against the average income of citizens that live under that route and then explain why you have chosen to inflict some of the most deprived communities of Glasgow with the burden of noise pollution whilst you attempt to alleviate it for the affluent communities of Bearsden, Mugdock and Milngavie?

This new flight path travels over densely populated areas of Royston, Haghill, Bridgeton, Dalmarnock, Rutherglen. As aircraft noise pollution is known to be associated with higher rates of cardiovascular events such as heart attacks and strokes it might be nice if areas of the city where residents are already affected disproportionately by these health issues were spared the compounding influence of this new route.


52 Replies :


#1 - Pat replied on the 17/01/2018 10:02:57 PM

Had a look at the document, you're not wrong about the maps. Very difficult to see but the new flight paths do seem to be over Dennistoun and other east end areas. I notice that the holding path also goes over Dennistoun so we could have jets circling all day. I also wonder if this proposed path will add to the already high levels of air pollution in Dennistoun?
It was quite easy to file an objection. Have you considered a social media campaign too?


#2 - Fiona replied on the 18/01/2018 9:30:54 AM

Thanks Pat. Yes, was thinking of social media campaign but not quite sure how to go about it...not an expert in Facebook etc, although certainly happy to add input. If you or anyone else has any ideas about that I'd be happy to get involved to try to raise awareness to as many people as possible.


#3 - Jim Watson replied on the 18/01/2018 11:37:21 AM

First thing to do would be to contact local councillors and MP.


#4 - Dennistonian replied on the 18/01/2018 11:53:10 AM

What about doing it through Dennistoun Community Council. They have a facebook page and twitter. Or though the local Councillors? Poster on the Library noticeboard?


#5 - Pat replied on the 18/01/2018 2:50:14 PM

I just posted this thread on Facebook and one of the Edinburgh campaigners left this reply,
"We were (and still are!) heavily involved in the campaign against the Edinburgh flights paths in Mark Ruskell's office. The article is not entirely correct about Edinburgh, it has not been rejected due to objections as such but rather is permanently on hold due to multiple technical errors in the consultation. However, we shouted very loudly about these errors and the unfair way the consultation had been carried out, without which I'm not sure the CAA would have halted the process. You need to find folk that can rigorously go through the documentation and explain it in a practical way to communities, as it is a very technical process that can be difficult to manage. Also I would strongly recommend community councils in the affected areas to unite together and challenge the very need for expanded flight paths in the first place, as otherwise it becomes an 'us-vs-them' battle that probably no one will win."


#6 - Jacq Munro replied on the 18/01/2018 3:13:56 PM

Hi
I have shared this on DCC facebook - if you want the community council to discuss this then either come along to our next meeting on Feb 13th 7 - 9pm at Salvation Army Hall, Craigpark Drive or by emailing the Secretary on hello@dennistouncc.org.uk who can put it on the agenda.
Many thanks
Jacq Munro - Chair Dennistoun Community Council


#7 - Zoe replied on the 18/01/2018 3:59:37 PM

In the consultation document Dennistoun COmmunity COuncil is listed as a consultee (somewhere in the list p80-90) so it would be interesting to know how the consultation process works (given the above post which doesn't suggest this is something already on the radar of DCC / they haven't been contacted even though the consultation is supposedly underway). Will follow this and get involved in any campaign locally.


#8 - Jacq Munro replied on the 18/01/2018 6:08:59 PM

Hi Zoe
We may have received correspondence on this - it all goes to the Secretary to raise at appropriate meetings, I will update after next meeting. However we need lots of local voices to tell us what you want us to do on your behalf so please do still get in touch and we will do our very best to represent what Dennistoun residents want.
thanks
Jacq Munro


#9 - Gillian replied on the 18/01/2018 6:16:22 PM

Thanks Fiona, really interesting read, I wasn't aware of the health issues around noise pollution.


#10 - Fiona replied on the 18/01/2018 7:59:23 PM

Thanks for all responses. I have emailed Glasgow MSPs but no response from them as yet. Will contact councillors as well when I get a chance. I asked (through the query function on Glasgow Airspace website) for Glasgow Airport to provide clearer maps showing how the flight path relates to local areas as at the moment it is not clear and a massive 'GLASGOW' obscures a lot. They have now replied that they will provide this and as soon as I get this I will pass it on to anyone having meetings.

I understand that new demand may have to be accommodated (don't know the actual figures here though) but I would have thought maybe Prestwick is in a better position to accommodate more flights which can take off over the sea or far less densely populated areas. It's a similar distance from the city as many airports in European cities are at approx 30 miles, so it doesn't seem out of the question that the infrastructure and transport there can be worked out to improve transit times to the city centre?

In the end I think this will be a numbers game- the more people that get as vocal as possible in as many ways as possible the more chance we have of making ourselves heard, and the more chance we have of harnessing different types of expertise from people that can challenge the specific details laid out or successfully communicate the impact of the proposals to others to get them involved.

I am almost tempted to think they have deliberately chosen this FLEMN flight path as it goes over areas where people won't challenge as they are too busy getting on with the grind of daily living and managing the multiple deprivations of their localities to spend time writing fancy letters to powerful people they think are never listening anyway. Make no mistake about it, they will rely on the lack of raised objection to get this through, and one or two people shouting forcefully will not be enough, so if you do object (and I realise not everyone will!) take a few minutes to write or go to a meeting.


#11 - anon replied on the 18/01/2018 10:48:27 PM

I used to share a flat (in Hyndland) with someone who worked closely with community organisations all around the world. When asked why Hyndland was so free of litter and other areas no so tidy, they said, "because people in Hyndland complain, and they do it a lot and they don't stop complaining until it's done. They can do this because they have time, energy and an expectation that it should be done" There are of course, many other factors affecting why 'nice areas' are nice, but in these times of ideological austerity and big business controlling everything, maybe we need to take a stand!


#12 - Jacq Munro replied on the 19/01/2018 10:44:05 AM

FAO Fiona who started this thread
Can you please contact me on chair@dennistouncc.org.uk as the Evening Times have been in touch and would like to speak to you directly.
I have the details and will pass on in an email to you
many thank
Jacq - Chair DCC


#13 - Fiona replied on the 20/01/2018 1:50:55 AM

Thanks, have emailed you now Jacq.

Also to let people know Glasgow Airport have advised me they have now put up a clearer map and this can be found on their airspace page (click the expand map option upper right of graphic to see full detail) FLEMN is, as I believed, flying direct south over Alexandra Park and Haghill area.


#14 - Anon replied on the 21/01/2018 9:39:18 AM

There has always been a flight path above us but the airport is so far away that we never notice it here due to the height and angles the aircraft would need to get into before landing in Paisley . Dennistoun/ haghill is quite safe


#15 - Touny replied on the 21/01/2018 6:45:35 PM

I see the proposed new flight paths are also due to increase air traffic over Rutherglen, but their MP is already on it for them (at least trying to get more detailed information - see recent Daily Record item).


#16 - Fiona replied on the 21/01/2018 10:32:41 PM

Anon, I don't think that is correct - you can look at the existing flight paths compared to the proposed ones on their documents and the existing ones do not fly anywhere near us (albeit pilots are on occasion given permission to make turns at different times -variation that won't exist to such an extent when they implement the new technology). The existing paths either travel much further west or east of us. The proposed one is right overhead and if you look at the new map they have provided at my request it will travel at an elevation of approx 4500ft or 1400meters. If you then scrutinise their documents you will see they expect the aircraft that use Glasgow airport to produce noise in the region of 60-75dB at this elevation (as heard at ground level), and further on a table shows that 70dB is the equivalent to a vacuum cleaner 1meter away. So yes, it will be a real change and we will hear it. If I have read their documents correctly then 53% of ALL their departures will proceed on this flightpath FLEMN above us - please have a read for yourselves.

You will also see that their infographics displaying population density are partly based on statistics from 2011, and do not seem to account for the population increase that our general area will be seeing, with thousands of homes being built at the athletes village directly under the paths and many other builders such as Bellway developing areas nearby. They are using these graphics to justify new flight paths affecting less people but they should have the projected density populations for 2018/19+, when the change will occur - not 2011!


#17 - anon replied on the 22/01/2018 9:31:07 AM

@ #11 - so true! friend with Glasgow council told me the exact same thing, which is why whenever i comment on here i always ask people to make individual complaints, dont leave it to others, the more that complain the better, and its very easy to do these days with internet/email etc. Friend did also say residents in the posher areas made better 'quality' complaints given a few of them were often solicitors and were organised as a group when doing it.


#18 - anon replied on the 23/01/2018 12:56:55 PM

where do I find the form please


#19 - anon replied on the 23/01/2018 2:43:55 PM

@ #18 - The form is here form.jotformeu.com/80041960713349


#20 - David Moore replied on the 29/01/2018 1:31:10 AM

I suffer enough noise from whitehill pool running plant and machinery 24/7. Additional aircraft noise would make the noise pollution levels frankly absurd if 70dba is accurate as set out in another message.


#21 - Touny replied on the 29/01/2018 8:48:30 PM

I realise that we can all respond directly to the consultation, but has an online petition been started for this? It proved very effective for those residents who opposed the proposed changes to the Edinburgh flight paths recently.


#22 - Pat replied on the 29/01/2018 11:52:50 PM

Great idea! Change.org?


#23 - Hazel Dunn replied on the 31/01/2018 6:15:15 PM

Hiya - I’m really up for being involved in this. I recently bought a starter home/flat in Haghill and have been working pretty hard to do the most I can with my decrepit building, since it has suffered terrible and inept factoring for upwards of a decade. It seems that Haghill frequently gets taken advantage of in this way by greedy businesses, because, as somebody up there quite rightly pointed out, they know people here are more likely to be trapped in a difficult daily grind that takes up most of their time. Let’s try to change that and let people know that we won’t be taken advantage of!

Avaaz seems quite good too for community petitions... Let me know if you want me to start one, and if there is a particular segment of text that needs to be included (could just roughly copy and paste the original post?)... I’m also going to try and make a small poster to hang on the backs of front doors to closes. I probably only have enough money to make copies for Aberfeldy / Aberfoyle / Aberdour streets but if anybody wants me to send them the poster via email they could print it and stick it to doors in their street.


#24 - Anom replied on the 5/02/2018 12:18:46 PM

Hi,

Is this on the next agenda for Dennistoun Community Council?

Also Would think that Kim Long should be contacted if not already - both as a local councillor and green would hope this would be an issue Kim could perhaps take a lead on.

Will send an email to her as well: kim.long@glasgow.gov.uk


#25 - anom replied on the 7/02/2018 1:45:09 PM

I have emailed Kim Long who has replied to say she will look into it to get more info and will also be at next dennistoun CC meeting.

Additional Info: new review in Journal of the American College of Cardiology - reported in Feb 2018.

The Lead author has stated said chronic exposure to anything over 60 decibels has the potential to do harm to the cardiovascular system.

Reference this back to #16 Fiona " they expect the aircraft that use Glasgow airport to produce noise in the region of 60-75dB at this elevation (as heard at ground level)".

The work "chronic" is open to interpretation i know but would daily exposure x flights per day over X years count?

Google Noise Pollution Increases Heart Risk for whoile article if interested.


#26 - Touny replied on the 14/02/2018 1:40:18 AM

Just wondering if a social media or other petition has been started yet?


#27 - anon replied on the 14/02/2018 1:09:40 PM

It would definitely be good to get a campaign started sooner rather than later and try to build up some momentum.


#28 - anon replied on the 20/02/2018 2:29:30 PM

Hi,

Just a quick update. I had a reply from Kim Long. Kim has put a video on her facebook page and has been in touch with the airport requesting specific information, and i believe is pressing for a public meeting.


#29 - Anon replied on the 1/03/2018 11:16:29 PM

So are there plans for a petition?


#30 - Dennis replied on the 2/03/2018 11:38:12 PM

If people want to raise objections then go to www.glasgowairport.com/airspace - 'submit a response' then 'objection'.


#31 - David replied on the 3/03/2018 9:50:26 AM

I went to the Johnstone exhibition on 27.2.18. According to their noise person it will be no/little change for dennistoun but worse for bearsden residents. That’s the opposite of what I understood from looking at the documents. I said to them that their documents were hard to understand if that indeed is the case. I’ll be interested to see what others make of what I’ve been told by the team manning the public consultation events. I’m frankly now confused.....maybe that’s the idea?


#32 - Craig replied on the 5/03/2018 12:34:51 PM

I doubt it will be worse for bearsden. To those that have lived there the flight noise is already terrible and as mentioned the residents there raise "good quality" complaints


#33 - Pat replied on the 5/03/2018 6:58:31 PM

What's happened with the petition??


#34 - Ian replied on the 31/03/2018 7:44:48 PM

I have just submitted an objection at www.glasgowairport/airspace I was told at the consultation at Whitehill School 28th that the flights would between four and seven thousand feet and at the busiest times would be every five to six minutes.


#35 - Anon replied on the 4/04/2018 1:10:49 PM

I see the BBC has run a story on this. Have a look at the BBC Scotland News page.


#36 - Tom replied on the 4/04/2018 1:18:44 PM

Ian, that is also what we were told. From their documentation this is equivalent to standing closer than 1m to a vacuum cleaner!

Also, the new navigation system means the aircraft will now fly directly on a narrow flightpath, rather than being dispersed across a wider area as they are now - this means they will all be condensed above Dennistoun.


#37 - Anon replied on the 4/04/2018 2:36:21 PM

We have lived in Dennistoun long enough to remember the noise from aircraft regularly flying overhead. We wrote to Glasgow Airport, maybe thirty-odd years ago, and received a polite response defending the use of this flight path. The prospect of aeroplane noise once more disrupting the lives of Dennistoun residents is pretty disturbing because of the constant stress levels that result from this.
If there are any local petitions against the use of the proposed flight path, we'd be very happy to sign.


#38 - Fab replied on the 4/04/2018 7:01:31 PM

We just sent 2 objections regarding the potential noise pollution this would bring , we stay in Staffa street and we have to put up with the constant noise from the motorway as it is.
Hopefully a lot of Dennistoun residents will object too. It took 2. Minutes at the most to fill an objection to the Glasgow airport/ airspace site.


#39 - Derek replied on the 5/04/2018 10:20:57 AM

I'll be contacting my local msp! Ivan McKee eastend representative based out of hillfoot street dennistoun


#40 - David replied on the 9/04/2018 5:39:02 PM

Just to mention that the noise contour maps in the consultation seem to illustrate only aircraft noise and do not appear to take account of existing noise levels. With the M8 in close proximity I was very surprised that base line noise measurements of the existing noise climate have not been taken. I have written to clarify if I am right.

If they have ignored existing noise from M8 this is a very misleading consultation when considered in combination with the information provided by Ian about concentrating flightpath and frequency.


#41 - fiona replied on the 10/04/2018 9:16:10 AM

I don't know if anyone else is being kept awake/ woken up by flights over our area at the moment but I certainly am. Heard flights last night until 11ish and this morning was woken up just after 6am. This happened last week and I advised the airport of this. Please everyone do likewise if you are being disturbed so that they can see a history of disturbance to the area. New research is out confirming what they already believed - poor quality sleep plays a causative role in the development of Alzheimer's through increasing deposits of beta-amyloid plaques in the brain.


#42 - RL replied on the 13/04/2018 10:14:57 PM

Hi - I've submitted this objection in case anyone wants to cut & paste any of the text for their own objection. Today is closing date for consultation.
Dear Sir/Madam,

Objection to proposed changes to flight paths.

Reasons for objection:

The proposed changes will concentrate flights into a single narrow flight path over a densely populated area. Despite being advised the noise levels that we will be exposed to have not shown to have a detrimental effect on health I have significant concerns that as an area there are already significant health inequalities; adding a concentrated flight path over the area will be detrimental in terms of noise exposure and pollution. This area already suffers from existing significant ambient noise and pollution levels from the M8.

I know the proposal is for "day time flights" however exposure to an average of 4 flights per hour, from 6.00am to 11.00pm potentially at a noise level of being 1m away from a vacuum, is likely to have a negative impact on health and wellbeing (and a particular issue for people working night shifts).

There are a number of unanswered questions, namely the airport representatives at the residents meeting on the 28th March, were unable to tell us currently how many flights go over Dennistoun/East End, their frequency, what on average their elevation is at the moment and also the average noise level they produce. This makes it very difficult to put into context what effect the changes will have if we do not have a current baseline for comparison.

Regards,


#43 - m replied on the 7/05/2018 11:16:45 PM

**** me, jet2 LS 120 just went right over the drives at 4500 ft and it sounded like when the bin lorry is outside the flat for a good minute.

If the place is constantly like that after these changes I'd sooner burn my block down for insurance money than live here.

What's the latest news?


#44 - n replied on the 8/05/2018 8:31:15 AM

That flight was on approach so engines not on full power. Just you wait until you get departures climbing over Dennistoun with the engines at full.


#45 - anon replied on the 9/06/2018 10:20:53 AM

It's 7:40am on Saturday morning and that's the 4th plane I've heard overhead in the last 10mins or so - this doesn't seem right? Has there been any outcome to the flight path relocation?
Thanks
P.s. there's another!!!


#46 - Fiona replied on the 10/06/2018 10:24:31 AM

I think they are trialling more flights over the area in order to be able to say 'well actually we have been doing this for the last few months and nobody complained, so there shouldn't be any problems rolling this out.' These are departures that you are hearing (you can track them on some websites online which show full routes pretty much in real time.) and they occur when the wind is in a particular direction..I believe north easterly rather than the prevailing south westerly. I have complained so they have it on record that it is a nuisance and I hope others do likewise.


#47 - David replied on the 10/06/2018 8:56:05 PM

I also thought the aircraft were both more frequent and noisier. It seems th CAA are losing their remit to examine noise issues and a new body is currently being set up. I'll dig into this a bit more,
. Is Glasgow airport trying to get an approval before CAA who are biased towards operators lose the power to rule on these matter. I'll post some links to let others have a look. Certainly concentrating flight paths doesn't seem to be a good idea moving forward for any community affected and sharing any noise as widely as possible to reduce the frequency of it occurring would seem a far fairer approach.

I know know for a fact that the noise from the M8 was Ignored in all the noise contour information as CAA policy approach does not require existing significant noise sources to be considered. Sheer madness. No wonder they seem to be getting noise matters taken off them.


#48 - Rachel replied on the 12/06/2018 10:33:35 AM

Yes I've noticed more planes over the last couple of weeks for sure. Please let us know if you find anywhere we can write in and complain. It might be worth getting in touch with Kim Long to see if she's heard anything more as well.


#49 - anon replied on the 23/06/2018 4:23:17 PM

The aircraft this Saturday morning have been pretty constant. I checked Glasgow Airport & it advises to call this freephone number 0800 013 2429 which I will do but does anyone have a link/email as I'd also like to have a record of my complaint & future ones I intend to make, as this now seems to be a regular occurrence on a Saturday?
Thank you.


#50 - anon replied on the 24/06/2018 1:12:25 AM

Noticed the flight noise to - is it a case if we don't complain they just go ahead?


#51 - Alan replied on the 24/06/2018 10:12:06 AM

its a bit late to complain now the flight path changed weeks ago.


#52 - Fiona replied on the 25/06/2018 1:56:30 PM

I believe Glasgow Airport have to go back to the drawing board over this and meet updated criteria from the CAA for their planned routes and consultation process. "Last month, the airport was told its proposals, which had been prepared against the previous CAA CAP725 guidelines, would now be measured against the more stringent CAP1616 rules."

So as far as I know nothing will have changed yet, but obviously I imagine they will be pushing ahead trying to meet the new guidelines.


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